Avonie | When I began reading Shades of Jade, it reminded me of those articles
that appeared in magazines like Essence and Ebony in the 1980s early 1990s
discussing man-sharing as a choice. And many of the problematic rationale
dealt with this notion of the "extinction of the black man," suggesting that
they were either gay, in jail, on drugs or of course married. Consequently,
some women were consciously deciding that man-sharing was an option. I was in
University at the time and I so clearly remember the heated discussions we
had about the issue. I didn't get it then and I still don't understand what wo
uld truly motivate someone to say that is a choice for me. |
Gloria | I wrote this book because I've personally known 3 or 4 women in my
lifetime who have done this. |
Avonie | Exclusively?...That was their choice? |
Gloria | Yes! Yes! One or two of them didn't start out exclusively but, men
lie about the fact that they are married and the women I think closed their
eyes to the fact that they couldn't call them at home or visit them. They
just accepted it because he was what they wanted. Then after a while they got
stuck in the mode. Since I've been doing book-signing and talking to book
clubs, women actually come up to me and say, `This was my life before;' or
`this is my life now;' or `I have a sister or a friend that's doing this.'
Even men have told me that they are buying the book for women they know. It's
bigger than I thought. |
Avonie | I guess I'm naÔve or just require too much time and attention in my
relationship, but I can't begin to accept that this would be a viable option.
I don't get it. I was even trying to feel empathy for Marissa when she
provides an explanation for why she does it. But I thought so what? She's
been hurt, who hasn't? I guess I was searching for a reason to understand it
but there really is none. Add to that the character is a woman who seems to
have it going on. She's not economically dependent. |
Gloria | A lot of them aren't, most of them aren't. And the funny thing is
when I came to the point of giving her a reason for doing what she did, the
fact of the matter is, there are women who actually don't need a reason. What
many of the women say is they like not having to have an obligation to a
relationship; meaning they don't have to cook for these guys or clean up
after them. |
Avonie | There are wives who say that too. |
Gloria | Okay! |
Avonie | I'm still hung up on wanting a viable reason. And much of that comes
from seeing people I love deal with the consequences of infidelity. |
Gloria | I gave her a reason because I thought that some readers would not
accept me saying that this is a choice that she made for no reason at all.
About month ago I was watching television and Queen Latifah came on. And the
show was about single women who only go out with married men. And I flipped.
I had to stop working to watch this. And I was upset because her show is
technically off the air because I was trying to email her to tell her that
this was my book. I thought I was being cute by putting four men with Marissa, because here's
the thing, a lot of women end up sitting by the phone waiting for these
married men to call because their wife and children get them first. I decided
that I didn't want her sitting by the phone so I had to give her a few guys
to play with. But this woman sat up there on Queen Latifah and said she had
five men at one time. And she wasn't sitting by the phone. I said my God,
there is Marissa. And I've had other women also say they had 2 or 3 at the
same time. |
Avonie | That's a lot of work too. |
Gloria | Not really. For their bodies it's a lot of work, but they say
(because now I'm really questioning these women), that one - they don't have
to sit by the phone; and two - only one means you're in a relationship with
that man and that can be a trap. For instance I have an aunt who went with a
married man for all of her adult life and even had a second family for him.
And when he left his wife, 30 years down the line, he didn't come to her. |
Avonie | That's frightening. |
Gloria | That's real. |
Avonie | Are men reading the novel and what have been their responses? |
Gloria | One of the first men that approached me said he read it because he
didn't think women were making choices like that. But after reading it he
said that he realized that his own sister was involved with a married man but
he just couldn't accept that she had made that choice. So he gave the book to
his sister after he read it. More men are reading and emailing me with their
comments or are coming to various book-signings. They say they enjoy because
of what they learn in the book but also because of the suspense element. |
Avonie | That was the appeal for me, the element of mystery. But the
extremeness of the stalking, was that required to even get Marissa to
evaluate her choices? Is that what it will take to get mistresses to back off? |
Gloria | Yes, I have met women who have been in this particular situation and
the interesting thing is it's the wife who's typically stalked by the
mistress. That's what I've heard more of. But with someone like Marissa, who absolutely saw nothing wrong with what she
was doing, there's no stopping. Her friends were tells her, her family was
telling her but she was having it good. The guys were giving her what she
wanted, she had the money and she had whatever the relationship was. |
Avonie | Did you expect the book to hit a nerve like it has? |
Gloria | I wasn't trying to write the great American novel. I was just trying
to tell this little story but the response has been phenomenal. It touched a
lot of nerve which is why it probably sold so well when I first
self-published it. The issue is real and while it is a work of fiction in
many respects its non-fiction. |
Avonie | Why did you choose to use the mystery approach? It worked for me
because I wouldn't have been as interested in the novel without that
"who-done-it" component. |
Gloria | Initially, I hadn't even thought about anything like this. But this
one woman came to me and she was boasting about what these men were doing for
her. It used to irritate me so much. And I asked her `Do you ever think about
the wives and children?' And she said `No, what goes on between me and these
men have nothing to do with their children or their wives. I don't even let
them talk to me about their wives or their children.' My response was `Are
you saying out of sight out of mind? If he is giving you all this money
(women get cars and homes), if he's making love to you, you're taking it from
his wife and children. Maybe he's the one that took the vow of fidelity and
yes he is absolutely wrong but so are you. You own it to womanhood, to
sisterhood. But if your ass gets stalked by one of these wives who decided
not to play with you you'd have to open your eyes.' As soon as I said this to
her my brain went that's it "wife stalking." |
Avonie | It sounds like the whole process was based on "case studies" so to
speak. |
Gloria | In some respects yes, the story took on a life of its own and often I
wouldn't know what was going to happen until I wrote it. |
Avonie | Now, you self-published the book a year ago before Random House's
imprint Striver's Row/Villard picked it up. What motivated taking the solo
route? |
Gloria | It's very hard out here as a black writer to get published. And I had
been shopping the book around and would get responses like `great story...,'
`great idea...,' `great dialogue...,' `great pace... but there's no market.'
And I though `no market?' what are they talking about? My husband finally
said, `what are you gonna do? either you get a real job or self-publish it.' I was afraid but I went for it. And shock of shock I did a 2000 copy print
run last April and it sold out in three weeks. The cover was so plain that
distributors said no one would buy it, but they did. We did a 3000 print run
and four weeks later they were gone. |
Avonie | What was your marketing strategy? |
Gloria | There was none. I had a book with a plain white cover with green
letters and a ring dangling off of the `J.' And people are still coming into
book signings with them asking me if I would sign it and I love seeing it. |
Avonie | Talk about the power of word of mouth. |
Gloria | It was all word of mouth because I had no marketing money. No ads, no
bookmarks or posters nothing. I had no money. |
Avonie | Was there media support? |
Gloria | Absolutely none! The word of mouth and New York City is the best
place to be. In New York City we have street vendors and those guys sold more
than half the stock that I had. They were selling it to women who were
working 9-5 on Wall Street, in Brooklyn, up in Harlem and they spread the
word. I was getting email from Hawaii, Texas, California and they were saying
`My friend told me to buy this book.' Then they were going into stores in
their local communities and asking them to order the book. That's what did it. Its not just me, Karen Miller's Satin Doll did the same thing so did Mary
Morrison's Soul Mates Dissipate. |
Avonie | Absolutely, others have done it with some success that then had
publishing houses knocking down their door. |
Gloria | Karen sold 24,000 copies, Mary Morrison sold 13, 000. |
Avonie | That's how E. Lynn Harris started out too. |
Gloria | Yes, and the list goes on and on. Last year was a banner year because
now that I'm on the road I have met at least 12-15 people who have
self-published and have done so very successfully, to the point of being
picked up. |
Avonie | Is that a path that you'd recommend because there are a lot of people
out here who believe they have a creative idea that would have mass appeal
and want to do this but are being similarly discouraged. |
Gloria | We were all being discouraged. I would get rejection letters that
would just make me want to cry, especially since they were so beautiful --
`great story,' `great idea.' What came out of last year was the establishment
of eight new imprints by these large publishing houses to publish our books.
However, I've been talking to booksellers now and a lot of them are saying
that what's happened to the others and me is wonderful but some people have
no business doing it. But I don't tell anyone not to do. I tell them to go
for it and follow their dream. If it's there its there if its not it's not.
At least when they're sitting there at 90 they won't have to look back and
say `If I coulda, woulda, shoulda.' |
Avonie | I understand discouragement. When you step outside of the box and
dare to set your own path, people around you, some of them unknowingly, will
try to bring you back into alignment with what they are comfortable with --
the status quo. So I've found that you have to be grounded and clear about
your vision and keep that in front of you all the time so no one can derail
you. |
Gloria | Very true. Karen, Mary and I, we are out here sharing the information
with people. I'm gonna tell you how I did it, I not gonna keep it to myself.
You see the pie is big enough for all of us to get a bite. And I point out
some of my mistakes like not having someone edit the book for me, I thought I
could do it myself but you can't. You need another pair of eyes. I tell
anyone who will ask because there is power in numbers. |
Avonie | There seems to be some inconsistent in the logic of the publishing
industry. On the one hand the market is being saturated with more and more
books by black authors yet the number of people who have to take things into
their own hands seems to be growing because the industry isn't taking notice. |
Gloria | We've had this discussion. Its really not a saturation because if you
go into any of the major bookstores only roughly 10% of their books are by
African Americans and if you go into an African-American bookstore it's the
other way around. So if it looks like saturation, the reality is they are
just starting to give us an opportunity to get our works out there in greater
numbers. We know the bottom line is money and because they saw that with our
meager budgets we were making some money they wanted to capitalize on that.
But we're wondering about the opening of these new Imprints for us, which is
segregation in a way, will they then pull out in a few years and say it
didn't work and leave us all nowhere or will we be integrated in the whole?
Who will be left standing when it's all over? |
Avonie | Really, is it a good thing -- these African-American focused Imprint
labels? On the one hand it acknowledges the marketability of the product but
is it also ghettoizing the works into this other category where like you just
said, you are not integrated into the whole. Are you being acknowledged
because you are a black author or because you produce good work? Would Toni
Morrison's works, for instance, be produced through one of these black
Imprint labels or would it somehow be categorized differently? |
Gloria | A lot of us are going to have to be very careful about what we're
writing right now because the opportunity is there and if we don't use it
right, it will be messed up. Meaning we cannot get caught up into writing
novels that fall into the trend category because trends come and go. We have
to try to write something that can stand the test of time so we don't fall by
the wayside. |